devlbasher

Swap Formula - I already searched!

30 posts in this topic

Hey everyone,


 


New here, and we're trying to get a team together for VIR in August.  We're looking at building a bit of a frankenstein car, and the swap formula will be a big factor for us.  I have read the rules, and read the forums, and i feel like my eyes are about to bleed, but I still am not clear on one thing about the formula.  In case it helps, we're swapping a motor and trans into a FWD car to make it a mid engine.  We know we'll have $75 in surcharges, but what I need to know is this:


 


Are we allowed to use car-part.com to offset the "stuff" in?  For instance, if the value for the axles, subframe, etc. IN is $100, and the value of those same things OUT is $100, is it a wash?  Or do we have to just take the whole hit for the "stuff".  I know the rules can't take into account every single situation, but it seems like we'd be getting hammered pretty hard if we can't offset any of that.


 


As an addendum to that one, if the "stuff" OUT can't be factored in, can the motor/trans swap possibly result in a negative value that could offset some of the "Stuff"?  I'm not illiterate, and it looks like there is a new rule in 2014 that makes it so that the main component swap can't be less than zero before moving on to "stuff", but there was a LOT of confusion about it in one of the threads, so I just thought I'd ask.  Sorry for such a long first post.  :)  Thanks in advance for the help!


 


Trevor


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The best advice I can give is to read the swap tech sheet and the regular tech sheet carefully, then contact your regional tech director and tell him exactly what you're planning on doing and how you're planning to do it, before you do it.


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yea, best advice, just contact your regional tech.  :)


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I sent an email to Phil, then I found Mike C and the "easttech" email address, but Mike told me Phil would be the one to answer those. I posted here in hopes of getting an answer sooner because we're waiting on that to get started on some things. Emailed Phil Thursday morning...any idea on normal response times for those guys?

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It is all in the rule book. Stay away from threads. They will only confuse you with misinformation. Only read the rulebook and talk to Phil. 


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Fair enough...I'd rather have an email from Phil to cover my butt anyway. Though to be clear, I've read this section of the rules many times now, and the answer to my question specifically isn't addressed. It could easily be interpreted either way, so I just want to be sure.

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From my understanding there are no negative numbers allowed.


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I know there are no negative numbers allowed...I need to know if the "Stuff" component allows for IN and OUT.  I know I can count the value of the motor we take OUT against the motor we put IN, and same for the trans.  But can I count the value of the axles we take OUT against the value of the axles we put IN?  And all the other crap needed for the swap.


 


That was my question.  I suppose I'll just wait to hear back from Phil though.  Thanks for the help guys!


 


Trevor


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No; as shown on the swap valuation tech sheet,

http://www.chumpcar.com/downloads/ChumpCarSwapFormRev14-B1.pdf

the only credits (value OUT) you get are for the major components (engine, trans, diff), not "stuff". That's very clearly set out on the swap valuation tech sheet, in the final section, TOTAL COMPONENTS OUT (credit). "Stuff" is in the section just before that, TOTAL OTHER "STUFF" IN (value add).

 

I'm not illiterate, and it looks like there is a new rule in 2014 that makes it so that the main component swap can't be less than zero before moving on to "stuff", but there was a LOT of confusion about it in one of the threads, so I just thought I'd ask. Sorry for such a long first post. :) Thanks in advance for the help!

Trevor

 

Go through the swap sheet and fill it out exactly as it is written, in the order that it is written and you'll have a very good indication of what your swap will be valued at. That should be the same as what Phil says it is; if not, go back and find out what you did differently than Phil and correct it! :) Once you've gotten all of the swap-specific things accounted for, the rest of the mods that are needed to complete your car go on the regular tech sheet.

http://www.chumpcar.com/downloads/ChumpCarTechSheetRev14-A1.pdf

 

The most important thing here is not to fool yourself into thinking you can slip something in where it doesn't belong without tech or another competitor spotting it. And remember, self-inflicted wounds usually hurt the worst. ;)

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Are you actually swapping a different drivetrain in when making it mid engine or just relocating the stock engine rearward 10 feet or so? When we relocated our stock drivetrain we were only assessed minimal amounts for the extra bits needed to make it work, no swap sheet required.


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Every single bit of “stuff†is added to the value. The only parts that are allowed an out value is the engine, trans, and differential, and the lowest value on those parts after the swap is zero. Everything else like subframes and suspension components to make it work would have to be added. Maybe if you could move some of the rear components to the front you could make a case that you haven’t added value, but if you need to swap parts from a different car all those would have to be counted.


 


It’s hard to see how a conversion from front wheel drive to mid-engine could be made to work within Chump valuations, but it would be cool if you didn’t care about the final value.


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No; as shown on the swap valuation tech sheet,

http://www.chumpcar.com/downloads/ChumpCarSwapFormRev14-B1.pdf

the only credits (value OUT) you get are for the major components (engine, trans, diff), not "stuff". That's very clearly set out on the swap valuation tech sheet, in the final section, TOTAL COMPONENTS OUT (credit). "Stuff" is in the section just before that, TOTAL OTHER "STUFF" IN (value add).

Go through the swap sheet and fill it out exactly as it is written, in the order that it is written and you'll have a very good indication of what your swap will be valued at. That should be the same as what Phil says it is; if not, go back and find out what you did differently than Phil and correct it! :) Once you've gotten all of the swap-specific things accounted for, the rest of the mods that are needed to complete your car go on the regular tech sheet.

http://www.chumpcar.com/downloads/ChumpCarTechSheetRev14-A1.pdf

The most important thing here is not to fool yourself into thinking you can slip something in where it doesn't belong without tech or another competitor spotting it. And remember, self-inflicted wounds usually hurt the worst. ;)

WHAAAAAAT? I had not seen this form! I'm on my phone, so can't pull it up right now, but this should be very helpful. Thank you! Also, we don't want to try to slip anything past anyone. We're honest people and want to do it the right way, that's why we want to know ahead of time. Thanks a ton!

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Every single bit of “stuff†is added to the value. The only parts that are allowed an out value is the engine, trans, and differential, and the lowest value on those parts after the swap is zero. Everything else like subframes and suspension components to make it work would have to be added. Maybe if you could move some of the rear components to the front you could make a case that you haven’t added value, but if you need to swap parts from a different car all those would have to be counted.

It’s hard to see how a conversion from front wheel drive to mid-engine could be made to work within Chump valuations, but it would be cool if you didn’t care about the final value.

It would be a different drivetrain, and those other parts are certainly going to ding us some. Might kinda handle like crap if we want to avoid the penalties. I'll have to do the math on it

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mender, I did pull up that form, and I just want to bounce this off of someone. It looks to me as though the parts out can be used to offset ALL the parts in, correct?

For instance, lets say our motor/trans IN was $100, and all the other STUFF IN was another $100, and then the motor/trans OUT was $175. According to that tech sheet, the formula seems to say that we would have a value increase of $25 before the surcharge, right? $100+$100-$175=$25

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mender, I did pull up that form, and I just want to bounce this off of someone. It looks to me as though the parts out can be used to offset ALL the parts in, correct?

For instance, lets say our motor/trans IN was $100, and all the other STUFF IN was another $100, and then the motor/trans OUT was $175. According to that tech sheet, the formula seems to say that we would have a value increase of $25 before the surcharge, right? $100+$100-$175=$25

yes, but don't forget parenthesis...

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No parenthesis needed for addition/subtraction, as order of operations is moot between those two functions. :)

All joking aside, thank you for the answer!

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That's my understanding as well.

It would be a different drivetrain, and those other parts are certainly going to ding us some. Might kinda handle like crap if we want to avoid the penalties. I'll have to do the math on it

If you really want to have a mid-engine car it might be easier to start with one; that's why I went with the Fiero. I really wanted to do a Fiat X1/9 with an Ecotec or Zetec transplant but one of my team mates is 6'5" and 270 lbs, no way was he fitting into an X1/9 and even the Fiero is a tight fit.

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After looking at it, we might be ok...I'll have to look up all the parts to know for sure. Will be close

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drop tech a note and run from the forums, before it gets nuts!  :)


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Whats the usual turnaround on these "notes"?  I sent an email to Phil Thursday morning, and then sent one to Mike C and easttech@chumpcar.com once I found out they existed on Monday, but Mike replied back and said Phil would be the one to respond to the tech questions.  I get that 5 days isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things, but we're waiting on the answers to determine exactly the route we're going for the build, so we're just sitting on our hands for now.  Any idea how long it usually takes to get a response?  Also, why do they have an "easttech" email address if I'm supposed to send it to the national tech person anyway?  That's weird.


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New year, new people in charge.

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Whats the usual turnaround on these "notes"? I sent an email to Phil Thursday morning, and then sent one to Mike C and easttech@chumpcar.com once I found out they existed on Monday, but Mike replied back and said Phil would be the one to respond to the tech questions. I get that 5 days isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things, but we're waiting on the answers to determine exactly the route we're going for the build, so we're just sitting on our hands for now. Any idea how long it usually takes to get a response? Also, why do they have an "easttech" email address if I'm supposed to send it to the national tech person anyway? That's weird.

What is your worse case scenario? Run it in EC if you misjudged the premise? I applaud your effort but I'm not sure you understand who and what will be racing next to you.

Nostalgia? Like Chaparral type engineering? There are folks here that will punt you just the same....

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Thanks Tubby.


 


And worst case would be EC, but if we could avoid that by having some questions cleared up ahead of time, why wouldn't we?  We have a couple of ways to approach the project, and having answers to the questions I sent to Phil would dictate to some degree how we proceed.  We'd still run in EC if we had to, but it seems silly to make no effort to avoid it.


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Phil is the national tech director and he lives in the east , with all the other real racers


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Thanks Tubby.

And worst case would be EC, but if we could avoid that by having some questions cleared up ahead of time, why wouldn't we? We have a couple of ways to approach the project, and having answers to the questions I sent to Phil would dictate to some degree how we proceed. We'd still run in EC if we had to, but it seems silly to make no effort to avoid it.

You seem to be moderately well adjusted so I feel like this question won't offend you much.... how well do you figure your Franken-berry car will finish in its first foray?

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