Pee Wee

West Coast wish list

243 posts in this topic

I'm not in any way in charge of tech so feel free to ignore me. :)

 

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2 hours ago, mender said:

I have a Trans Am WS6 power steering rack in my Fiero, and while I like the idea of not using up points for it, it is definitely a performance advantage.

 

Before the quick ratio rack, I was a little more cautious because the stock 3 turn rack meant flying elbows if the back end tried to lead. With the 2.2 turn rack, I can catch the rear quite easily with a flick of the wheel and I can be more aggressive on corner entry.

 

Of course one could say that it's either a comfort item (which it is, nice light steering with very good feel so low fatigue) or a safety item (less likely to spin and cause an incident) but one has to recognize that it's mainly for performance. The 10 points for a rack swap is still very reasonable; we already have way too many free items to include that in the freebie list.

Well apparently you could use a steering quickener and the stock rack to get the same result for no points. 

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3 hours ago, mender said:

I have a Trans Am WS6 power steering rack in my Fiero, and while I like the idea of not using up points for it, it is definitely a performance advantage.

 

Before the quick ratio rack, I was a little more cautious because the stock 3 turn rack meant flying elbows if the back end tried to lead. With the 2.2 turn rack, I can catch the rear quite easily with a flick of the wheel and I can be more aggressive on corner entry.

 

Of course one could say that it's either a comfort item (which it is, nice light steering with very good feel so low fatigue) or a safety item (less likely to spin and cause an incident) but one has to recognize that it's mainly for performance. The 10 points for a rack swap is still very reasonable; we already have way too many free items to include that in the freebie list.

Yeh, but not all of us chose the Angel of Death for our racecar.  If y'all believe teams are winning due to a faster ratio steering rack....  go back to AutoX.

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1 hour ago, dogtired said:

Yeh, but not all of us chose the Angel of Death for our racecar.  If y'all believe teams are winning due to a faster ratio steering rack....  go back to AutoX.

 

Not because of it in particular but all the little things add up to a fast car.  Besides gaining actual torque the other single biggest improvement in going from the RX-7 to the Mustang was going from 4.5 to 2.5 turns lock to lock.  

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46 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

Not because of it in particular but all the little things add up to a fast car.  Besides gaining actual torque the other single biggest improvement in going from the RX-7 to the Mustang was going from 4.5 to 2.5 turns lock to lock.  

Someday maybe I will be able to modify my car.... legally, that is.  Of course....  not like I campaign a Honda..... sheesh....

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So my electric power rack is driver comfort ? Thanks. I was wondering how the points work for it.

 

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15 hours ago, Snorman said:

Holy poop...somebody protested a car because they thought it had power vs. manual steering? 

giphy.gif

 

 

 

Yessir. That was me. Credit to @Slugworks Paul for being stand up about it. I have been bitching about steering racks being a cost item for awhile.@Hi_Im_Will can provide emails where i begged him to change his rack but he and Phil independently confirmed it was illegal to change ratios. All due credit to Paul for finding a creative and legal solution to a problem. He is obviously an impressive engineer. I thought it was a different rack but he was actually using a cool inline system. Actually, I don't know this first hand because Phil( @Mopar 63)  grabbed another team member to do the talking and I took the out (aka i bitched out). This protest should be taken as a compliment and expected when you win with such ease (or at all). If we want rules to be enforced then we should encourage protests. The process was easy and friendly and the fact that @lenbo211 is complaining about it bothers me (no hard feelings. please let me rent your car in the future).  We can't expect Phil to know it all and I happened to have DSM knowledge and saw something fishy  (plus we finished 3rd and i was butthurt by Pauls absurd pace. He was so fast that I couldn't battle with him for more than 2 turns). Being a closed logbook I first questioned his 16g turbo, something else I can't remember (both claimed), and then the rack. When a car is that blisteringly fast you should expect the protest. Yeah, I agree that an e-assisted steering rack won't make you faster and stopping you from changing the ratio is a stupid rule (but Paul didnt do that. But the ratio rule is dumber than the oil cooler rule). In the end, he just engineered a better car.  With this said I will continue to scrutinize his badass vehicle. We all know a DSM doesn't stay together without magic.

Edited by Jamie
trying to sound like less of a bitch
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5 hours ago, Jamie said:

Edited 4 hours ago by Jamie
trying to sound like less of a bitch

Didnt work .    Way to man up tho. :) 

 So now we have free power assist.

   Cool.  

 The inline system is most likely   Saturn Vue.   electric collumn.  I just put one in a customer stock car.  Not cheap ,not easy. but totally self contained  and well out of the way of the engine bits.  

Edited by flyinglizard
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6 hours ago, Jamie said:

 

Yessir. That was me. Credit to @Slugworks Paul for being stand up about it. I have been bitching about steering racks being a cost item for awhile.@Hi_Im_Will can provide emails where i begged him to change his rack but he and Phil independently confirmed it was illegal to change ratios. All due credit to Paul for finding a creative and legal solution to a problem. He is obviously an impressive engineer. I thought it was a different rack but he was actually using a cool inline system. Actually, I don't know this first hand because Phil( @Mopar 63)  grabbed another team member to do the talking and I took the out (aka i bitched out). This protest should be taken as a compliment and expected when you win with such ease (or at all). If we want rules to be enforced then we should encourage protests. The process was easy and friendly and the fact that @lenbo211 is complaining about it bothers me (no hard feelings. please let me rent your car in the future).  We can't expect Phil to know it all and I happened to have DSM knowledge and saw something fishy  (plus we finished 3rd and i was butthurt by Pauls absurd pace. He was so fast that I couldn't battle with him for more than 2 turns). Being a closed logbook I first questioned his 16g turbo, something else I can't remember (both claimed), and then the rack. When a car is that blisteringly fast you should expect the protest. Yeah, I agree that an e-assisted steering rack won't make you faster and stopping you from changing the ratio is a stupid rule (but Paul didnt do that. But the ratio rule is dumber than the oil cooler rule). In the end, he just engineered a better car.  With this said I will continue to scrutinize his badass vehicle. We all know a DSM doesn't stay together without magic.

Given your famed renter status, I assume you are not a team captain and therefore not able to file a protest anyway:

 

5.5.1. Any Team Captain has the ability to file a written protest with the Regional Director or Tech Chief regarding any car in the event. Protests MUST be submitted to the event’s Regional Director or Tech Chief after the start of the race and prior the close of Post-Race Impound. Protest forms are available in the “Rules” section of the ChumpCar website.

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1 hour ago, ABR-Glen said:

Given your famed renter status, I assume you are not a team captain and therefore not able to file a protest anyway:

 

5.5.1. Any Team Captain has the ability to file a written protest with the Regional Director or Tech Chief regarding any car in the event. Protests MUST be submitted to the event’s Regional Director or Tech Chief after the start of the race and prior the close of Post-Race Impound. Protest forms are available in the “Rules” section of the ChumpCar website.

Team captain was with me. But maybe they forgot to look for the team captain merit badge. It wasn't a written protest. We had talked to Mike and Phil about protesting earlier in the day and they stated we didn't need to write anything and could just talk to Phil after the race.

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2 hours ago, flyinglizard said:

Didnt work .    Way to man up tho. :) 

 So now we have free power assist.

   Cool.  

 The inline system is most likely   Saturn Vue.   electric collumn.  I just put one in a customer stock car.  Not cheap ,not easy. but totally self contained  and well out of the way of the engine bits.  

 Pretty sure that's what it was

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And we started with a power rack and just wrapped the hoses after removing the pump.  So I think we actually went the other way.  

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8 hours ago, Jamie said:

If we want rules to be enforced then we should encourage protests.

Exactly

8 hours ago, Jamie said:

complaining about it

I wasn't complaining about the protest. I think more protests should happen and people should know that it happened and what the result was.  I was stating that Phil's handling of it in private without wanting to embarrass either you or the team you thought might have not claimed something was a problem.  It should not be handled quietly.  Not that you should have a big meeting and announce "Attention in the Pit and Paddock". but trying to keep it hush hush does nothing but perpetuate the probably false feelings of cheaters getting away with it. Nobody wants to be "That Guy", but then we seem to have no problem making big noise on the forums where it's just rampant speculation and it's impossible for responses to be seen by everyone because it get's buried on page 3 of 9. Public at track examples make for good learning experiences, they answer the question instantly and give peace of mind that enforcement is happening.  The original point of why I mentioned it is that people feel like at least in the Chump West of old that there was no enforcement. Chump may need to do things a bit differently here in order to solidly change that perception rather than just assuming we will all believe the "wink, wink, nod, nod" that you're taking care of it. I'm sure you are actually taking care of it. But you're fighting a perception now so you may need to go a little overboard to change that.

Just as an example, this last weekend, a team that was in the lead by 3 laps with 15 minutes or so to go decided that when their driver was black flagged, rather than the driver instantly coming in, the team captain came over and tried to dispute the flag.  I wasn't present for the conversation, but the net result was the black flag steward ended up DQing the team and they finished 79th or something like that.  And then the next day on the forum when people asked what happened, the full explanation was given. Very public enforcement of the rule made it obvious to everyone who paid attention that disputing a black flag was pointless and enforcement would show no favorites. And I can tell you that many of the team captains are doing the same thing I've done and reminded their drivers how to respond to a black flag.

I still think protests should happen in race control during the race with a log book.  I get not wanting to open a teams log book to the world.  I think it's silly, but get that it's a concern for some people.  So, I'd propose that log books be kept in race control and a team can request during the race that staff look at the book and see if xx part was claimed or yy part was claimed.  Staff can look and say yes or no.  Then the suspecting team can go back to their pit and know that an inspection or possible penalty is coming for the other team or know that their car is legit.

Oh, and by the way @Jamie, I'm not so fragile I take things said on a forum personally. And I like being corrected if I'm off base. (Except for maybe @dogtired because he's serious about everything he says.) I didn't realize you wanted a seat in my car.  I'm full I think at ORP and for sure at Laguna Seca, but maybe Sonoma when it get's announced.  Sorry if we've already talked about it. I have a hard time connecting avatars on forums to people in the RW.

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I think most times when there has been a DQ there has been an explanation, whether by management or by others on the forum.  I could name half a dozen off the top of my head.  Not many but it does happen.

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On 26/07/2017 at 5:09 AM, flyinglizard said:

Didnt work .    Way to man up tho. :) 

 So now we have free power assist.

   Cool.  

 The inline system is most likely   Saturn Vue.   electric collumn.  I just put one in a customer stock car.  Not cheap ,not easy. but totally self contained  and well out of the way of the engine bits.  

 

Not a single lie - I paid about $50 for the complete column and motor at Wally's U-pull it in Oshkosh WI, I bought the controller on ebay for about $75, and made my own bracketry to mount it. 

 

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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So it sounds like:

Change in effort (either adding or eliminating power assist) = no points

Change in ratio = 10 points

 

According to that interpretation, adding a steering quickener should be 10 points because of the ratio change. The location of where the ratio change occurs shouldn't make a difference. Just my thoughts.

 

Edited by mender

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On 7/25/2017 at 9:39 AM, enginerd said:

No. They though it was a non-stock rack (with power steering thing). Turns out it was stock rack with some kind of added power steering and this addition was determined to be points exempt as a driver comfort item (just like a coolshirt cooler). 

 

This ruling makes me wonder if nonstock 'faster ratio' racks would also be points exempt under the driving comfort umbrella. (In some turns I have to turn my hands completely over since I don't shuffle-steer). 

 

[and I am NOT advocating for 0-point rack and pinion swap. I do not want that. I am drawing a similarity between this power steering thing and a rack swap and implying that I think non-stock power steering systems should cost points]

 

Nate, just remember nothing comes free. If you multiply the ratio, you multiply the effort.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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2 hours ago, mender said:

So it sounds like:

Change in effort (either adding or eliminating power assist) = no points

Change in ratio = 10 points

 

According to that interpretation, adding a steering quickener should be 10 points because of the ratio change. The location of where the ratio change occurs shouldn't make a difference. Just my thoughts.

 

I had just assumed the 10 points for a steering rack that was being thrown around specifically came from the FPV list, but it's not (maybe that was in an older version?). I hate these unwritten rules, if a value has been determined for something put it in the rulebook for everyone to see. 

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