Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Xph

Ignition Toggle Kill Switch

21 posts in this topic

So I have this 50a toggle switch wired in to replace my key switch ignition, the way its wired it is both the ignition and accessory power, is that suitable for a kill switch?

 

IE if you toggle off the switch, it will stop the fuel pump, ignition, kill the motor, ect...  (only thing connected to our accessory power at the moment is our wipers)...   our headlights and brake lights for instance are not interrupted with this switch (like in a street car).

 

I was reading some old threads that talked about having a second "battery disconnect" which we have (to keep from discharging the battery during storage)...  our battery disconnect however isn't touching the charging circuit, so it wouldn't kill the ignition...

 

Can we just put the lightning bolt sticker above our main toggle switch, and will that satisfy the rules?  or do we need a more conventional twist type kill switch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If your brake lights don't cutoff, it isn't a kill switch.  It must cut all power to the car imho....

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All power must cut off in case of fire/crash/fail

 saying that

Some people leave a fused connection from the main alt to batt hot all the time as to run a simple big kill "all" switch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

ok, so I know teams are doing what we are doing, I know it will pass the 3500 rpm off stop test...  but I guess its not exactly whats in the rules or is it?

 

3.14. MASTER ELECTRICAL KILL (CUT-OFF) SWITCH

 

3.14.1. All cars must have a racing-type master electrical kill switch mounted in the center of the dash area of the car (roll cage dash bar) or center console area of the cockpit, accessible to and by the driver while he/she is secured in the driving seat by all seat belts and harnesses. The control or key for this switch should be red and the OFF position should be clearly indicated. Both the main battery circuit and the ignition circuit must be interrupted by the kill switch. All electrical cut-off switches shall be identified by the international lightning bolt symbol. Decals available at ChumpCar Tech Inspection.

 

3.14.2. The dash or console switch MAY be the sole kill switch, or it MAY be a second switch, wired in series with an existing or additional switch located elsewhere on the car. If the switch is wired in series, the interruption of either switch, independent of the other, must kill all power and vehicle operations.

 

3.14.3. Both terminals of the Kill Switch are to be treated as “hot” terminals and must be insulated.

 

3.14.4. At technical inspection, the kill switch function will be tested by revving the engine to approximately 1500 RPM and turning off the switch. The engine must shut-off immediately.

 

 

So first question, is a toggle switch going to be considered "racing type" (this is a 50amp single pole singe throw

 

Toggle, SPST Auto Red Switch 50A @ 12VDC

 

And the second is the interpretation of "main battery circuit"  as the switch clearly interrupts the ignition circuit..

 

In our factory wiring, the main battery goes to a fuse block under the hood, three main power wires go into the cabin, our switch cuts 1 of those three (the second is only used to energize the starter relay, and the third is the normal safety item circuit, lights, horn, ect)

 

Edited by Xph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

56 minutes ago, Xph said:

"main battery circuit"

Those words are supposed to get you thinking of interrupting a battery cable with a 200+ amp switch to prevent fire when your starter solenoid fuses into a molten blob or a crash so bad that it would be in the drivers best interest to have the whole car go cold on instant command. (rollover/fuel spill/massive short)

 

I can bet with 100% certainty a email to Phil is going to be a waste of electrons...Why are you trying to work around the obvious?

 

How about this?

 

Summit Racing Part Number: FLA-FR1003
 

Switch Activation: Manual

Switch Actuation: Rotary (turn)

Voltage Compatibility: 12

Continuous Amp Rating: 250 amps

Surge Amp Rating: 2,500 amps

Includes Alternator Disconnect: No

Includes Magneto Disconnect: No

Waterproof: Yes

Mounting Bracket Included: Yes

Emergency Off Decal Included: No

Quantity: Sold individually.

In-Store Pickup: Choose In-store pick-up (OH, GA, NV) on our web site.

Top racers realize that using a low-amp switch creates resistance and actually reduces power. Flaming River's top-of-the-line heavy-duty battery disconnect switches are designed for complex electrical systems. The Big Switches feature a spring-loaded, vibration-resistant, waterproof design and are furnished with an easy-grip T-handle. They are accepted by most sanctioning bodies, including IHRA/NHRA.

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fla-fr1003?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-flaming-river&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy930-JiP1QIV2Y-zCh0agwkkEAQYBSABEgIdpPD_BwE

 

 

 

Edited by Team Infiniti
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

   You come into pit I'm marshalling your team is fueling I see your brake lights flash ,or dash lights on, or anything on your going to stop fueling until I make sure nothing is on .. 

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback guys, just asking because this particular car was built to a different set of rules, where most of the interior had to be retained, its still road going with things like the interior heater and dash clock (and full stock dash)..  it has its carpet removed and has a cage we were just wondering if the existing "switch" would work...  (which I can see its only about half of what we need)...  we will have to do some more research..

 

Our goal is simply to add the least "custom" wires to the harness to accomplish the goal and to do that in the safest manner possible for this one; it may end up that running the alternator output to the battery and then battery cable into the dash is the best option, just not my first choice since the kill switch is like 12" from the interior fuse block I would ideally prefer to switch there not adding more holes or wires through the firewall...  (and well since we have to keep the stupid OE clock, I would love to not have it loose its time constantly, but it would seem that could be fixed with other options than leaving all the OE wiring in place)

 

(this car is not yet a chump car, just trying to check how much we have to change to make it into one)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, okkustom said:

   You come into pit I'm marshalling your team is fueling I see your brake lights flash ,or dash lights on, or anything on your going to stop fueling until I make sure nothing is on .. 

 

Remind me not to run a race you're marshalling ;-)

 

My main switch meets every letter and intent of the rule, every fuel/ignition/computer/pump/fan etc shuts off, kills the motor, and isolates the alternator from the ignition as well as the battery.  Not to mention I have additional properly sized circuit breakers at key points in the system... but my brake lights are on an independent fused circuit, and remain functional even if the main switch is off.  

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gearhead_42 said:

 

Remind me not to run a race you're marshalling ;-)

 

My main switch meets every letter and intent of the rule, every fuel/ignition/computer/pump/fan etc shuts off, kills the motor, and isolates the alternator from the ignition as well as the battery.  Not to mention I have additional properly sized circuit breakers at key points in the system... but my brake lights are on an independent fused circuit, and remain functional even if the main switch is off.  

I would hassle you for this as well.

 

That is the only way it is easy for a pit lane marshal to tell if your car is off.  If I see brakelights, I am going to stop you until I investigate further.

 

I understand your point of view and agree that there is a small loophole (if you will allow me to call it a loophole).  However, if I am a marshal on the pit lane, you bet your butt I am going to stop you if those brake lights are glowing.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Gearhead_42 said:

 

Remind me not to run a race you're marshalling ;-)

 

My main switch meets every letter and intent of the rule, every fuel/ignition/computer/pump/fan etc shuts off, kills the motor, and isolates the alternator from the ignition as well as the battery.  Not to mention I have additional properly sized circuit breakers at key points in the system... but my brake lights are on an independent fused circuit, and remain functional even if the main switch is off.  

3.14.1. All cars must have a racing-type master electrical kill switch mounted in the center of the dash

area of the car (roll cage dash bar) or center console area of the cockpit, accessible to and by the

driver while he/she is secured in the driving seat by all seat belts and harnesses. The control or

key for this switch should be red and the OFF position should be clearly indicated. Both the main

battery circuit and the ignition circuit must be interrupted by the kill switch. All electrical cut-off

switches shall be identified by the international lightning bolt symbol. Decals available at

ChumpCar Tech Inspection.

 

How are you getting power to your brake lights if the main electrical supply AND the ignition supply are off.  I assume your alternator is not spinning if the engine is off (which it MUST be). 

 

I realize this rule is written... interestingly.  However, it does not mean that you are allowed a main power supply and then sort of a secondary one that doesn't need to be killed. 

 

3.14.2. The dash or console switch MAY be the sole kill switch, or it MAY be a second switch, wired in

series with an existing or additional switch located elsewhere on the car. If the switch is wired in

series, the interruption of either switch, independent of the other, must kill all power and vehicle

operations.

 

I would say that brake lights are a vehicle operation.

 

 

In other words, how does anybody know how your car is wired?  Am I supposed to take your word for it that just the brake lights still have power?  Do you want the marshal to get out their voltmeter and start probing around while you are waiting to fuel your car?

 

 

Just kill all the juice.  There is no reason to leave anything powered up.

 

 

Edited by wvumtnbkr
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have my interior lights and exterior "theme" lights wired to battery so they stay on even with the kill switch off.  That way, the driver can be found in the middle of the field outside hog pen at 3 in the morning if he goes off.

 

Anyone see an issue?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Add another (stretching, hard) one:  I have a data display with an internal battery, it remains powered on during pitstops because it has *a separate power supply* from the main circuit ...   How does the marshall know it's not powered by the car, and the power is still on?

 

Intent of the rule is to cut power to fuel and ignition sources *in case of a failure* that could cause sparks and set your ass on fire.

 

Also, 3.14.1 defines the operation, 3.14.2 is for secondary switches, and does not retro to the overall function defined.  

 

So yes, OP, you need a main circuit switch to cut the operation of the engine/alternator/ignition/fuel pump.  I disagree that it needs to kill every electron in the car but obviously interpretations vary.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My interpretation of the intent of the rule was always that if the circuit had enough power to ignite a leaking fuel tank it should be cut.

 

My opinion: Standalone dash or tablet run on an internal 5V battery? Who cares. Brake circuit on a 15-amp fuse that could end up shorted to the frame after a wreck? Cut it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the kill switch off, how many cars still have power to the ALT?  
with a simple kill switch, if the alt is on the engine side, it will continue to run, if on the bat side, it is still powered.

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that an internally powered dash or a phone or tablet for lap timing staying on during pit stops should be fine, but I have personally seen teams questioned by pit marshals over that exact issue at races before. In my car I also have a battery powered LED dome light for night racing driver changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Superdave said:

With the kill switch off, how many cars still have power to the ALT?  
with a simple kill switch, if the alt is on the engine side, it will continue to run, if on the bat side, it is still powered.

 

Exactly.... 

The way to solve the issue, cutting power to Everything, INCLUDING the alternator, is to use a 6 pole switch.

Chumpcar sponsor Racer Parts Wholesale has a $30 switch that will accomplish this. It even includes the resistor to properly ground out the alternator when the switch is turned off.

https://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1908/Battery_Disconnects

 

For $30 and a couple hours of work tying it into the ignition system and main battery cable, I would say this is one of the cheapest and easiest Safety Items to put on your car to keep it and YOU from burning up.

But the choice is yours.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, mcoppola said:

 I would say this is one of the cheapest and easiest Safety Items to put on your car to keep it and YOU from burning up.

But the choice is yours.  

Agreed in full.

 

But you have to remember to kill power after a wreck or when there is fire. Our least mechanical team member didn't even know that one should turn off the main power switch in such an event. I had to explain it to him.. 

Edited by enginerd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, enginerd said:

But you have to remember to kill power after a wreck or when there is fire.

Beenthere  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  Thanks for the support , its time for tech to answer,  oh Phil ?     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Exactly.... 

The way to solve the issue, cutting power to Everything, INCLUDING the alternator, is to use a 6 pole switch.

But there is still power to the switch, you can't ever really kill "everything". Not that I disagree with your suggestion, this is just a convenient place to make the point that your goal should be to have the minimum amount of powered wires in the car when the switch is off.

 

If the only requirement was that the engine die when the switch was shut off we'd just use the stock ignition switch, and it's clear that isn't good enough. 

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, mhr650 said:

In my car I also have a battery powered LED dome light for night racing driver changes.

Yep...works great. Harbor Freight gives them away for free. Add a little industrial Velcro and it works great.

We also take the time to show whoever the pit marshall is our setup before a stop.

 

The MP-10000 XT Power Mobile Energy pack takes care of keeping the GoPro/MiFi/Cerevo powered up during stops as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0