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Snorman

Control arm and heim joint points question

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We are looking to make a few changes and have lots of points to play with, but curious about "double dipping" on points. 

If we install an aftermarket control arm that has a spherical bushing in it, do we take 10 points for the arm AND 5 points for the spherical bushing? When we tech'd in September, Dan told us that since we were taking the points on our aftermarket rear swaybar that we didn't get hit with the points for the heim joints too. 

I'm guessing the same philosophy with control arms. Thoughts?

S. 

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Great question, same topic has crossed my mind too...

 

I was thinking about front control arms... if you run an aftermarket arm, it is 10 points, that makes sense. But chances are, it is going to take a specific ball joint to that arm. Is the ball joint included in the price of the arm? Or is it an add'l 10 points for the ball joint since it is no longer "stock"?

 

Sounds trivial, but I think tech and post-race inspection will be getting more and more detailed, so I think these questions should be addressed ahead of the matter. 

 

Edited by pintodave

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Exactly. We took 20 points on our rear bar, and were told in Tech that the heim joints were included in that. If we're talking the hit on the part, IMO there shouldn't be a hit on the mounting point as well. That gets to where your dissecting parts to individual pieces and allocating points, IMO. 

S. 

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A control arm is a component, doesn't really matter how many pieces it takes to make up that component it should still only be 10 points. The whole issue of spherical rod ends had never been very will regulated in Chump, the original rules specifically called out spherical tie rod ends, and even though that is a very specific component some took it to include any use of a spherical rod end. 2018 rules just say Heim joints 5 points, but that still isn’t clear since a non OE suspension component can have multiple Heim joints in it. Also people use them for things that would hardly be considered performance enhancing, are you supposed to pay 5 points if you use one to support your steering column? Mount your window net? Since I can’t get replacement plastic bushings for my windshield wiper linkage I made a replacement part with aluminum tubing and 2 small rod ends, am I supposed to pay 10 points for my windshield wiper linkage?

 

On my car a claim 10 points for the 3rd link and 10 points for the panhard, each of those components includes a rod end at each end but I don't know anybody who would say I should double the points claimed for the components.
 

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I brought up this question to Phil back in April when I worked the Mid Ohio race. I showed him the following picture of someone's example of an LCA modification. I asked it it was 10 points for the arm, plus 5 for the heim joint. His reply was that it was a non-oem suspension part, valued at 10 points total, including the heim joint. 

I'm not sure about how an LCA with additional heims on the inner end would be valued - I didn't ask about that....IMG_1766.JPG.cd5267fe9b47a1ee31d9cd2e460f44b0.JPG

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That's a good example. I'm talking about a LCA that is manufactured with a single spherical. To me, that's a 10-point part including the spherical. 

IMO, if you start to dissect parts to add values, where does that end? 

S. 

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My aftermarket anti-roll bar connects to the control arms using heim joints.

I don’t have to declare the heim joints because I already took a 20pt hit for the sway bar?

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23 minutes ago, Bob J said:

My aftermarket anti-roll bar connects to the control arms using heim joints.

I don’t have to declare the heim joints because I already took a 20pt hit for the sway bar?

Correct, that is what we were told at Sebring while going through tech.   We had them claimed on our sheet and have over 100 points to play with so it wasn't a big deal for us.   We just want to know what the rules are so we can fill out our paperwork correctly for 2018.   If we make control arm changes and take the points for them does the same line of thinking apply? 

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33 minutes ago, flyinglizard said:

10pts per side I assume.

Uhh...no. You can't buy one control arm. The pair is a component. 

Using this logic, cylinder heads should be 200 points for a V8 and headers should be 50. Because who runs a single aftermarket head or header? 

S. 

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31 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Uhh...no. You can't buy one control arm. The pair is a component. 

Using this logic, cylinder heads should be 200 points for a V8 and headers should be 50. Because who runs a single aftermarket head or header? 

S. 

I like that idea!  We run a 4 cylinder, make it happen;)

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55 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Uhh...no. You can't buy one control arm. The pair is a component. 

 

Not sure, maybe this is what you meant?

 

4.3.2. Fixed Point Value List

 suspension component (not otherwise listed in this table), non-OE: 10 pts per corner

 

Seems clear to me that an aftermarket control arm on the left and on the right would be 20pts.  

 

Upper and lower on both sides looks like it'd be 40pts

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This is how it is worded now, and it's changed for 2018. And I think a lot of people are going to take big point hits on a "per corner" basis. 

2017 BCCR.JPG

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1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

interesting.   If it flys under your understanding, I want to go the full monte route and do front and rear upper and lower on our Miata because control arms are one component 10pts.   

 

I'm guessing that the 2018 wording is what the intent always was.   It is how I always thought it was. (right or wrong)

 

Well then tech doesn't understand the original intent either.   When we went through tech in September we disclosed our aftermarket trailing arms (pair) and had them marked for 10 points on our tech sheet and logbook.   The 2015, 16, 17 tech sheets all say the word "component".    Dan actually looked under the car at them and moved on to the next item on our list after seeing them.   No mention that they would be 10 point EACH vs. 10 points for the pair.  No adjustments were made to our sheet. 

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1 minute ago, Snake said:

Well then tech doesn't understand the original intent either.   When we went through tech in September we disclosed our aftermarket trailing arms (pair) and had them marked for 10 points on our tech sheet and logbook.   The 2015, 16, 17 tech sheets all say the word "component".    Dan actually looked under the car at them and moved on to the next item on our list after seeing them.   No mention that they would be 10 point EACH vs. 10 points for the pair.  No adjustments were made to our sheet. 

Like I said, I was guessing.   Some work could certainly be done to make things more clear.   I always thought there was a left component and a right component.   I may have been wrong again. (I'm getting used to it) :)

 

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16 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

interesting.   If it flys under your understanding, I want to go the full monte route and do front and rear upper and lower on our Miata because control arms are one component 10pts.   

 

I'm guessing that the 2018 wording is what the intent always was.   It is how I always thought it was. (right or wrong)

 

As Snake pointed out, we listed our rear trailing arms on the 626 on our tech sheet and Dan saw them and we were charged 10 points for the "component". Now the language has changed to "per corner" (and it's been "per component" at least since 2015. If it was always "per corner" then there clearly is a big disconnect and I can hardly believe that we are the only car out there that took 10 points for a pair of control arms instead of 20. I would guess that this change, which was not redlined in the 2018 BCCR, is going to impact teams in 2018 tech. I wonder what else changed that has not been redlined. I guess it's time to thoroughly compare the BCCR's. :rolleyes:

S. 

2017 BCCR.JPG

2018 BCCR.JPG

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41 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Like I said, I was guessing.   Some work could certainly be done to make things more clear.   I always thought there was a left component and a right component.   I may have been wrong again. (I'm getting used to it) :)

 

No worries, at this point everyone is guessing.   lol 

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Changes to Fixed Points Value list as found with a quick redlining. The rest of the document only appears to have spelling and grammar corrections or changes, date changes, and monetary values changed. 

 

YCFRPjQ.png

 

WWQJPKB.png

 

 

 

 

 


 

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Like I said, I was guessing.   Some work could certainly be done to make things more clear.   I always thought there was a left component and a right component.   I may have been wrong again. (I'm getting used to it) :)

 

 

I was in the same camp as you, taking 10 points per extended ball joint, 10 points per side for our spherical bearings in our trailing arm...  etc...  we would probably have saved near 100 points (not that we needed to) if we claimed them in pairs...   I do wonder about something like a subframe then, where one part goes to two sides of the car, is it now a 20 point item (like a sway bar) if it is one component that affects 2 sides?

 

Ug..

 

My guess is, the intention always was 10 points per item...  20 points if added in pairs..  but in trying to clarify they failed.

Edited by Xph
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30 minutes ago, Xph said:

 

My guess is, the intention always was 10 points per item...  20 points if added in pairs..  but in trying to clarify they failed.

^^^^THIS^^^^

In my discussion with Phil, he described the lower control arm I showed him as a non-oem suspension component, valued at 10 points per side. 

Snake/Snorman - that's probably why the wording was changed to corner from component, (not pair of components),just as other parts of the BCCR have evolved to eliminate this type of confusion. I'm not sure how or why Dan only assessed  you 10 points for a pair of components, but I'm guessing it wasn't intentional, and due to your point margin to 500, it wasn't necessary to scrutinize every nut and bolt, and each point on your car. 

Edited by mcoppola
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1 hour ago, Johnpickard79 said:

Changes to Fixed Points Value list as found with a quick redlining. The rest of the document only appears to have spelling and grammar corrections or changes, date changes, and monetary values changed. 

 

YCFRPjQ.png

 

WWQJPKB.png

 

 

 

That is not the version i see on the website link to the 2018 rules.    

Edited by Snake

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1 hour ago, Snake said:

 

That is not the version i see on the website link to the 2018 rules.    

 

The images came from the output of a comparison redline of 2017ChumpCarBCCR.pdf to 2018ChumpCarBCCR.pdf , both of which came from the website links at https://www.chumpcar.com/rules.php

2018ChumpCarBCCR.pdf

2017ChumpCarBCCR.pdf

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59 minutes ago, Johnpickard79 said:

 

The images came from the output of a comparison redline of 2017ChumpCarBCCR.pdf to 2018ChumpCarBCCR.pdf , both of which came from the website links at https://www.chumpcar.com/rules.php

2018ChumpCarBCCR.pdf

2017ChumpCarBCCR.pdf

What I'm saying is the red lined version you posted is not what I see on either of the links from the website.   The 2018 rules link has red lined changes in it but this particular change is just changed and left black, no red line  Thats all. 

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